How to Talk About Sex and Puberty with Neurodivergent Kids

How can parents talk openly and effectively about sexual and reproductive health with their neurodivergent children? In this episode, Danielle welcomes Amy Lang, a sex education expert who specializes in supporting neurodivergent families. Together, they explore how parents can approach conversations about consent, puberty, safety, and relationships in ways that are supportive, positive, and practical.

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Guest Bio: Amy Lang, MA

A sexual health educator for over 25 years, Amy Lang, MA helps parents of all beliefs talk with young kids birds and the bees. She also works with early childhood educators and provides childhood sexuality and sexual abuse prevention training. Amy’s lively, engaging and down-to-earth style makes these uncomfortable topics easier to handle. Her professional clients include the US Air Force Youth and Family Services, Boys and Girls Clubs and numerous early childhood conferences and organizations.

Amy’s talks, books, online solutions center and podcast help parents learn how to talk to their kids about this important and awkward part of life. Amy is still married to her first husband, and they getting the hang of parenting their recently launched man-child. She lives in Seattle, WA, and you can learn more about Amy and her work at BirdsAndBeesAndKids.com

About Neurodiverging

Neurodiverging is dedicated to helping neurodiverse folk find the resources we need to live better lives as individuals, and to further disability awareness and social justice efforts to improve all our lives as part of the larger, world community. If you’re interested in learning more, you can:

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Transcript: How to Talk About Sex and Puberty with Neurodivergent Kids

Welcome & Guest Introduction

Danielle Sullivan: Hello, my friends, and welcome back to the Neurodiverging Podcast. My name’s Danielle Sullivan, and I am your host. I’m here today with Amy Lang, who’s a sex education expert who works, specifically nowadays, with neurodivergent families. You can find her at www.birdsandbeesandkids.com.

And today we’re going to be talking about sexual health, reproductive health with kids who are neurodivergent, um, how we can talk to our kids, what some common questions parents come to Amy with are, and just give you all the information you need to know, um, to get through this in one piece and have well-educated, well-rounded kids who are ready to deal with romantic and sexual relationships as they grow into young adults.

Thanks to Patrons & Where to Find Resources

Before we get started, I do wanna thank my patrons for supporting this podcast episode. Thanks to our patrons, we are able to provide low- and free-coaching for neurodivergent clients all over the world. Uh, all that comes from Patreon funds, and so does this podcast. I very much appreciate you all. If you’re interested in supporting our work, you can check us out at patreon.com/neurodiverging. And all of our transcripts, and previous podcasts, and blog articles and everything else, all of our resources are at neurodiverging.com.

Thank you so much to everyone who supports us. Whether you’re a patron or just a listener. You listeners, I know you listen to a couple of ads each week, and I’m sorry about them, but also I appreciate them, ’cause that money goes directly to supporting neurodivergent clients who otherwise couldn’t afford coaching services.

But thank you so much for being here. Without further ado, let’s talk to Amy. Well, welcome to the Neurodiverging podcast. Amy. I’m really, really thrilled you’re here today. Thanks for joining us.

Amy Lang: Oh, my total pleasure. I’m really excited to talk with you.

How Amy Specialized in Neurodivergent Sex Ed.

Danielle Sullivan: Me too. To start with, would you mind just telling folks how did you get into the neurodivergent space in sex ed?

Amy Lang: Thanks for asking. It was an accident. Um, I have been working with parents of all kids for, you know, many, many years and teaching, uh, them how to communicate and talk with their kids, primarily from preschool to middle school.

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: And, happily doing my thing. And I also do individual consultations. And I started to notice in the last couple of years, I’d be on the phone with someone and they would just drop in autism, ADHD. And then I thought, what’s going on? And so I started asking at the top of my consultations, “Any neurodivergence in the family?”. And I think like a third to a half of the people I was talking to had some kind of neurodivergence going on, so then I was like, alright, let’s go see what’s out there for families like this.

And I, uh, found basically nothing. So there isn’t anything like what I am doing, helping parents of neurodivergent kids have conversations or communicate with their kids. There was nothing specific like me. Um. There were, there are books for autistic kids about puberty, and they’re old, and there’s some other stuff out there, and there really isn’t anything for kids or parents to figure out how to have these conversations with their kiddos whose brains are wired differently. And so I was like, okay, I guess this means me.

So I got a certification in neurodiversity and sexuality, and I have been attending conferences and listening to podcasts, and I have a focus group of parents of neurodivergent kids to figure out, like, what do you need?

And then you know, learning’s different. All kinds of things are different. So I am a work in progress, so, um, give me some, gimme some grace. And then the other thing is that, um, I’m not neurodivergent. My kiddo, Milo, is not, but my spouse has dyslexia, and I have permission to tell this. And when you’re dyslexic in 1967/6, it’s not good.

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: Um, so it was very hard on him. But when I found out, we did not know it was a neurodivergence. And so actually when I found out, I didn’t tell him for about a month because I was like, okay, this is new news for him. And so when I did tell him, like so many people as adults—when he heard that, “Oh, my ways of being are about my brain. It’s just not that I’m trouble with reading.” Anyway, so that’s my story, and I just am so excited to be helping families. And there’s such a need and we can, we’ll dig into that.

Danielle Sullivan: Absolutely. I just wanna respond that that diagnosis as an adult is so validating for so many of us, and I’m, I’m really glad to hear it felt, and I, I’m thinking of a past client I had specifically who was diagnosed similarly in, in her, I think, forties. Um, and had a very similar sort of like, oh, it’s not—we often say for autistic adults, I’m not broken. I’m just part of this group. I didn’t realize. Right. And but that feeling of brokenness is so, can be so pervasive in your life and to have a reason, quote unquote for it can be so validating. So I’m really, I’m glad, really glad.

So I was on your mailing list for a long time before we met professionally, um, because one of my co-partners, who has a kind of a mix of neurodivergent, neurotypical kids, was a fan of your work. And then when I, you started doing neurodivergent work I, like, my ears perked up.

Because similarly to what you said, I have a boy child who’s 12, newly 12, and a girl who’s newly 10. And so we have been talking for a while, but we’re headed into puberty very shortly. And so I had been looking for books specifically for my boy ’cause he’s the older one and he’s autistic, and like you said, a lot of the books specifically for autistic children are very out of date and, um, bad. Like some of them are fine. They’re not like great, but they’re fine. But some of them are just bad.

And I was really like, okay, I know how to be blunt. I know how to talk about sex. I don’t feel like I’m as maybe, I was gonna say challenged, which is maybe not the right word, but I, I’m okay talking about difficult things straightforwardly. That doesn’t mean I know how to approach this specific subject, especially with somebody who’s a different sex, like biological sex, than me and living in a different time than when I grew up. And so it was really exciting to see you branch into this space because I was like, oh, okay. Someone that, you know, my co-parents trust who, I know you’re not neurodivergent, but you’ve done a lot of research and you are open to hearing from the community, and um, I just was so excited to get somebody in there who was not these like old, books on autism from even the nineties are really—

Amy Lang: Yep. I know—

Danielle Sullivan: really stigmatizing and kinda gross.

Amy Lang: I know. Yeah.

Danielle Sullivan: Anyway, that was just me blabbing about how I’m very happy you’re here, and I’m very excited to have this conversation.

Amy Lang: Thank you. Always good to have somebody blab at me about how excited they’re about this.

Danielle Sullivan: Yes.

Amy Lang: Thank you.

Danielle Sullivan: I’m very excited. Well, and everything you said about it being so necessary for parents, I’m one of those parents, right? Who’s, like, about to approach this. These are my, my eldest children. So I agree it’s so necessary.

What is Sex Positivity?

Danielle Sullivan: So I wanted to ask you first before we get into like specifics. One of the things that you are grounded in on your website and that I think is so important is that sex positivity and approaching, you know, reproductive health and sex ed with, and let me know if I’m using incorrect words, with that kind of positive aspect. And I think sex positivity gets talked a lot about, but isn’t always defined well or understood well in the sense of the family. So I was wondering if you’d be willing to talk about that for a minute. What does it mean, and why is it important that parents approach this topic that way?

Amy Lang: Yeah. Thank you for asking that. So, I think when people hear sex positive, it kind of is in the woke department. Um, and so people hear sex positive and they think, oh, all kinds of like different crazy sex acts and different kinds of relationships and polyamory and all this stuff, right?

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: Um, and that’s not what it is. Like, to me, what being sex positive means is just seeing sexuality and relationships in our bodies and gender and all attractions and all of that as a positive, cool, healthy part of life. That’s it. Instead of what we all experienced was sex negative, which means it’s, you know, the big messages are don’t do it. If you’re, you know, if you got a vagina and you do it, you’re a slut, right?

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: Like all this negative stuff about don’t do it. It’s not good for you. It’s bad. It’s bad. You’re gonna get in trouble. It wasn’t, for most of us, it wasn’t like, “Hey, this is a really cool part of life and it’s something you need to be prepared for.”

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: It’s something you need to be ready for. It’s something you need to learn about. And then also messages around like who you are as a sexual person is lovely and fine. Right? It’s evolving. Like, we didn’t get any of that. And so when I say sex positive, that’s what I mean.

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: So, within a family, as parents, it’s hard. I mean, it was hard for me. I’m like, I believe all this. And I’m like, okay, I don’t wanna shame you. But as a family, having that be your sort of family vibe around sexuality and talking, communicating about sexuality, um, being open about it, that’s being sex positive. And even saying like, I do not know what I am doing and saying it in your out loud voice, but we have to talk about this, it’s an important part of life. And you know, sexuality is and relat—romantic relationships are something we do for our entire lives, from birth until death.

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: It looks different at each age and stage. And it is the one thing in terms of child development, human development, that we don’t talk about. And I think it is, I think it’s a crime. I think people, I think people, human beings and kids have a fundamental human right to have this information because it’s such a part of us.

Danielle Sullivan: Yeah. No, I completely agree. And I, I wonder if this could probably be a whole podcast in, in and of itself, but from your perspective, what does shifting the lens from sort of that negative approach to the positive approach, what can that offer the family and the kid? Like, why is that? Or what does it do?

“An Informed Child is a Safer Child”

Amy Lang: Well, I like, I already said this, but if you think about this in terms of preparing your kid.

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: Getting them ready.

Danielle Sullivan: Yeah.

Amy Lang: And you take a minute and you think, “Oh, what if someone had actively prepared me? For this part of life, who would I be, what decisions would I have made? What would my relationships look like?” And so coming in with this idea of, of preparation versus prevention—

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: That’s one thing. Every study in the world, and I can like, “come on, we don’t need to study this again”. Uh, but shows that kids who have open communication in their families from a young age, a, an adult, a trusted adult that is actively communicating. Those kids wait longer before they have sex. When they do, they do it safely. And then the other piece too is that they are safer from sexual abuse.

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: An informed child is a safer child. Predators look for kids who don’t know that sex is for later in life, that don’t have convers—you know, don’t know about bodies and boundaries.

It’s not a, um, magic wand. Like it’s not gonna fix everything. It lessens that likelihood and increases the likelihood that your child will say to you, “Hey, this thing is happening to me, or this person said this.” Or like, “Hey, I’m thinking about getting busy with my partner.”

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: Right? Even though you’re probably like, “I don’t wanna hear that.” You wanna hear that, right?

Danielle Sullivan: Yeah. Yeah.

Amy Lang: That’s what, that’s the end result. And you know, if we think about another reframe for this is like, this is health and safety.

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: That’s it. This is about their health and their safety. And it’s big and it’s complicated and all that, but it is, that’s what we—that’s our job.

Danielle Sullivan: Yeah.

Amy Lang: Keep our kids healthy and safe. So yeah, I mean, it really makes a big difference. It makes a big difference. And, and frankly, any kind of sex talking, any kind of communication makes a difference.

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: Makes it for sure.

Danielle Sullivan: Yeah. Better to do some than none, for sure. Thank you so much for that. That’s really helpful.

I really, really appreciate that, just so parents can understand the kind of long-term difference, right, in approaching things this way, because I think a lot of us do—we did grow up in that sex negative sort of environment, especially at least where I grew up, and it can be really scary to pivot that and really scary to talk about something, especially with kids who are our little people. Like are—we feel like they’re vulnerable. We feel like it’s dangerous. So it’s a really big scary feeling for a lot of parents. So hearing the kind of results outcome of doing something different I think hopefully I will, will help some parents listening to be brave. To be brave and go for it.

Amy Lang: Great. Come on over! Yes.

Amy’s Most Received Questions

Danielle Sullivan: It’s really good. It’s really good here. The water’s good here. Would you be willing to talk a little bit about what are some of the most common questions you get from parents in your one-on-one consult, consultations, especially obviously around their neurodivergent kiddos, um, or neurodivergence in the household? What are parents worried about, and, you know, how, how can we support them?

Amy Lang: So the primary, um, concern for most parents of neurodivergent kids is about consent. And going both ways, right? You know, asking for consent and, you know, agreeing. Right? And so that’s the, that is the primary concern. And, and then, you know, what do they need to know by when? And how the heck do I talk to my squirrely ADHDer?

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: Right? Who can’t pay attention or is bouncing off the walls or, you know, my autistic kid who’s gonna learn it and blurt it, right? Those kinds of, I mean, honestly, it’s really all the same for everybody. How do I start the conversations? What do they need to know by when? Puberty, all of that. But the difference for parents of neurodivergent kids is really around communication style. And, and attending to your kids’ learning styles.

Also, they are more vulnerable. Yeah. So how do you, like, how do y’all talk with them, communicate with them in a way that they can hear, that please, please, Jesus will stick? Right. And then how do you, how do you, you know, know that they’re safe and okay? And so there’s some, there’s some tactics that you can do that we can, we can talk about. Um, but yeah, the biggest one over and over again is, “I am worried that my child is gonna be taken advantage of”, or I call them accidental incidents.

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: Is gonna do something, say something where they don’t under—fully understand that by blurting to some, some girl that she’s got, I’m gonna just be a little graphic, “Nice tits.”

Danielle Sullivan: You’re welcome here. Yeah.

Amy Lang: “Hey, nice tits.”

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm. 

Amy Lang: Because they’ve heard their peers talking like that and they’ve heard their peers saying things like that.

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: But then your kiddo doesn’t get that you don’t say that in front of adults, too.

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: You shouldn’t be saying it anyway.

Danielle Sullivan: Yeah.

Amy Lang: But so, you know, things like that. And one of the things that has me like basically enraged is about misunderstanding and not getting that: When a child says or does something like that, waps someone on the butt or whatever, and they’re neurodivergent, they don’t, they’re not being a predator. They’re not, that is not predatory behavior, that is impulsive, that, that is brain business.

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: Right. It’s not being a predator. So can I, can I give you an example?

Danielle Sullivan: Absolutely.

Amy Lang: This is one of the stories that made me wanna just like go make lots of noise and be mad. So I was teaching at an autism conference, the Milestones Autism Conference, and, you know, how to talk to autistic kids. And I was all done, and this man came up to me and he said, you know, “can I talk to you?” And I said, “sure.” He said, and he told me, “I’ve been raising my grandson.”

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: “Since he was a baby, a newborn. And he, I think he’s 15. He’s 15 now. And he is, he loves shoes. And he’s fixated on shoes. And he, we’ve taught him to ask first before he takes pictures of somebody’s shoes.”

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: And so he’s a, he’s a shoe person.

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: So at school there, I was a, were a couple of girls, and he asked, ‘can I take pictures of your shoes?’ And they said yes. And he kept asking. And they kept saying, yes, because some boundary stuff for them.

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: And him, and they got very upset and reported him, and he—I think they considered it some kind of sexual harassment. And from what I understand from the grandfather is that he wasn’t doing anything particularly sexual. I, I didn’t get all the details.

Danielle Sullivan: Yeah.

Amy Lang: He got expelled. He got expelled. And yeah, he should not have been doing that. And why he had a phone with a camera that he was able to use at school is a little bit beyond my—I don’t get—anyway, don’t ask me about—

Danielle Sullivan: Yeah.

Amy Lang: —ask me about that. But, so then, um, what we talked about is I said, okay, so he’s fixated on this.

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: So, how about you make a—get him a photo album?

Danielle Sullivan: Yeah.

Amy Lang: Right. Get him a photo album so he can go look at them.

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: And then I was joking with him, and I’m like, “Well, at least it’s not boobs.”

Danielle Sullivan: Yeah, could be worse. But also a wild consequence for what was basically a miscommunication and boundaries, it sounds like. Right? Like, he doesn’t understand where the boundary is societally, and the girls didn’t understand or weren’t—didn’t have the skills yet to ensure their boundary. And, yeah.

Amy Lang: It was—end of the day—And, and again, I don’t know, like maybe he was saying sexual stuff.

Danielle Sullivan: Yeah.

Amy Lang: I don’t know. But at the bottom, bottom line, it was a boundary, it was a boundary issue.

Danielle Sullivan: Yeah.

Amy Lang: And so, you know, for kids like that it takes, it’s more conversations, right?

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: It’s role play. It’s story—What are they called? Story—

Danielle Sullivan: The social stories.

Amy Lang: Social stories. Repeat, repeat, repeat. It’s watching shows and saying, “Oh, hey, see that happened. That’s not okay. Why?”

So that makes me really mad, especially with little kids. Especially with little kids. And so it requires, you know, the adults who are caring for kids to really understand, that’s not predatory.

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: It’s not okay.

Danielle Sullivan: Yeah. But it—

Amy Lang: It’s not okay. It’s not safe. Things need to be changed, child needs extra support or whatever, and the adults need to be like, calmed down.

Danielle Sullivan: Yeah.

Amy Lang: Right.

Danielle Sullivan: Yeah. Especially at that age, too. Like it’s, it’s—

Amy Lang: Yeah.

Danielle Sullivan: If they’re, you know, 25 or something, that’s different. But for, yeah. For a young, young person.

Amy Lang: Yeah.

Danielle Sullivan: Even for like my kids, we have, we have shifted the conversation. One of my, one of my kiddos is very, um, has a lot of sensory needs.

Amy Lang: Mm-hmm.

Danielle Sullivan: Wants to move a lot, jump a lot, runs into walls on purpose, grabs people. Right. And we have lots of rules around asking for consent before you grab people.

Amy Lang: Yeah.

Danielle Sullivan: Um, but one of the things that was recently coming up was they were going for chest. Just, I think ’cause of their height, because they’ve changed heights, and relative heights have changed as people have grown.

And we had to have a whole conversation around, like, some people are really sensitive about their chest, and you should not ever grab anyone’s chest without consent. Even if they’re your family. Even if it—and then it required re—I’ve forgotten the word, but like saying it over and over.

Amy Lang: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Danielle Sullivan: Over and over and over again. And not because they meant anything negative by it, or because they were assaulting anyone, but because it takes, took longer for that behavior adjustment to happen because he’s neurodivergent. 

Amy Lang: Yeah.

Danielle Sullivan: Um, you know, so I, I, I have a lot of empathy for that grandpa. I, you know, I hope that they’re [inaudible].

Amy Lang: Yeah, I just felt so bad. So I do wanna say one other thing about this.

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Reframing Consent

Amy Lang: So I’m kind of on a, I’m on a little bit of a campaign to stop saying consent.

Danielle Sullivan: Yeah.

Amy Lang: Because adults don’t understand what that means.

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: It’s really agreement.

Danielle Sullivan: Yeah.

Amy Lang: They agree. They need to agree.

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: Everybody needs to say yes because if you say to your kid, what does consent mean?

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: If there’s even a hesitation. Like, why wouldn’t you say agree?

Danielle Sullivan: Yeah.

Amy Lang: Instead. So, I’m on a little campaign. So, you can use both.

Danielle Sullivan: Yeah. Use what works.

Amy Lang: You can use both, but say agree ’cause it’s more clear.

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: Somebody needs to give permission. That’s all. Kids understand that better. But consent is a, it’s uh, I’m gonna get in trouble, but it’s a buzz—kind of a buzzword.

Danielle Sullivan: It’s a slightly—yeah.

Amy Lang: It’s a little, it’s not what it is, but—

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: It’s got this little bit of, um, anyway, that’s one of my things.

Avoiding the Word “Inappropriate”

Amy Lang: Lemme just tell the others that I don’t want anyone to use ever is inappropriate.

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: Stop saying that.

Danielle Sullivan: Yeah.

Amy Lang: Just say, okay.

Danielle Sullivan: Yeah.

Amy Lang: It’s a lot to get out your mouth and they—when you say, “Hey, that’s not okay.”

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: Everyone is like, “it’s not okay.” When you say,

Danielle Sullivan: I got that.

Amy Lang: When you say, “That’s inappropriate.”

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: Shaming. Confusing. I mean, I’m just over here like f-you, right?

Danielle Sullivan: Yeah.

Information = Protection

Amy Lang: Depending on my mood today. So anyway, so that’s the main, that’s one of the main, um, concerns. And then lots of folks don’t understand that when you’re open with your kid about sexuality, like I said at the top, and you’re talking with them, it’s protective.

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: They need to know what that stuff is.

Danielle Sullivan: Yeah.

Amy Lang: They need to know it’s not for kids, it’s for later in life. They need to know, like they need a framework for it, and it needs to come from their parents because they trust them. You’re gonna share your values, which is an important part of the conversation, and I’m just gonna talk—

Danielle Sullivan: You go for it.

Amy Lang: And then one of the other things for parent, I, for parents of neurodivergent kids, your lives. I mean, I can’t even imagine. Right. And here I am.

Danielle Sullivan: A little wild. Yeah.

Amy Lang: Yeah. Yeah. Talk, talk to them about sex. Right. So I realize there’s a lot for you to kind of cram in there.

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Myths about Neurodivergent Sexuality

Amy Lang: But just making a little space for this well, you’ll feel better and, also, there’s so many myths about neurodivergent people and sexuality and, and how, you know, lots of stories about they’re not interested, they’re un-capable. You know, “my kid’s never gonna” ,’cause right now they seem like they’re not. That doesn’t mean anything.

Danielle Sullivan: Yeah.

Amy Lang: So your, your perspective should be, they’re just like every other human being.

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: And operate from that point. And, and then that also I think is like, okay, they’re like every other kid. They deserve to have this information.

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: Yeah, it’s gonna look different. Yeah, it’s gonna look different, but it’s better to be talking and better to be open and better to be giving them information than it is to, to not.

Inclusive Information Supports Your Kids No Matter Who They Are or Who They Become

Danielle Sullivan: To folks listening, there’s a much higher percentage of queer folks in the neurodivergent population, trans folks in the neurodivergent population, and also agender, asexual, et cetera, like everybody.

Amy Lang: Mm-hmm.

Danielle Sullivan: There’s a much higher percentage of everybody.

Amy Lang: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Danielle Sullivan: Except, you know, kind of straight in the neurodivergent population for various complex reasons. And so I like you’re approaching me on just giving the information because we want, like, yes, you wanna ground it in your parenting values and you wanna, talk through this, but also if kids have information, they can apply it as they need it later to whomever they end up with or don’t end up with.

Whereas if we stick too much to narrative accounts or, or like stories of what it should be like, and don’t actually just give them the data, then they might not be able to apply it usefully later and it ends up not serving them. And so I, I, we opened, you know, we had, we have a bunch of books from, um, what’s her name? Corey Silverberg.

Amy Lang: Yeah.

Danielle Sullivan: The What Makes a Baby. And, and they’re like, you know, I have pros and cons about them, but we started them pretty young. And um, they’re really helpful because they just give data, and then you can apply it to your own family.

Amy Lang: Right. Right.

Danielle Sullivan: And now my kids, I had a conversation with my 10-year-old last night who was just like, she had watched some video on YouTube about twins, and she was like, okay, well is it two eggs or is it like, how does that, how does the implantation process work? Right.

Amy Lang: Yeah.

Danielle Sullivan: And she’s 10, and she is nowhere near having sex or dating or gonna be in romantic relationships based on what I know of her. But, um, she now has good information that she can use to, like, understand humanity better.

Amy Lang: Totally.

Danielle Sullivan: And yeah, and that kind of stuff, important, you know, it’s not just like, oh, prepare her for her period and then, you know, let it go.

Amy Lang: Yeah. And you, and you having talked with her openly, she knew she could talk to you.

Danielle Sullivan: She came right to it right before bed.

Amy Lang: Yeah.

Danielle Sullivan: You know how they ask you a million questions before bed?

Amy Lang: Yeah.

Danielle Sullivan: So, my son is all about space facts. And my daughter, it’s all can uh, this coat pattern be passed through genetically in cats? And also how do twins work? And those kinds of things.

Amy Lang: Yeah. Yeah.

Danielle Sullivan: That kind of stuff. Two very different kinds of kids right now.

Amy Lang: Biology. She’s biology baby.

Danielle Sullivan: It seems like it.

Amy Lang: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, um, Cory’s books are great.

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: And then Roe Harris’s books are also really good. They’re more, um, they’re more textbooky, don’t— Don’t go crazy, like, don’t think that’s a problem. But they’re more textbooky.

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: They’re more linear, I think.

Danielle Sullivan: Yeah.

Amy Lang: Describe that. And they’re great. I highly recommend both of those books.

Danielle Sullivan: Awesome.

Puberty and Sensory Issues

Amy Lang: But you said puberty.

Danielle Sullivan: Yeah.

Amy Lang: Let’s—

Danielle Sullivan: We can talk about puberty.

Amy Lang: Yeah. Let’s talk about puberty. So, neurodivergent people oftentimes have, have sensory issues like you just—

Danielle Sullivan: Yeah.

Amy Lang: And so, they really, really need to know about all the parts of puberty before they start.

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: And that means everybody knows about everybody else’s body. And average age of puberty start for girls is nine, and the first sign of puberty is breast buds. It’s not bleeding.

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: And then for boys, it’s about 10. And what you’ll notice usually is that they smell like goats and farts.

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: It’s really great.

Danielle Sullivan: Yeah.

Amy Lang: So gross. And then, you know, and then for some reason, Old Spice deodorant is the way to go. It’s gross. It’s—Old Spice was better than the goats and farts.

Anyway, so when they know before it’s happening, like I have a client or had a client whose daughter was very, very worried about body stuff.

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: She was just not good at it. And so what was she gonna, how was she gonna navigate puberty with her? And so what we talked about was like tiny little talks.

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: Like, get ready. Like having pads available so they can practice wearing them before they’re bleeding.

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: Um, talking about it. Making like it really clear that yes, sometimes when your breasts are developing, they can be painful.

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: Right? Talking about the random acts of senseless boners, right?

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: And those can be uncomfortable, so getting them ready for that, for the sensory issues, also, it is a big change. And sometimes human beings don’t like change.

Danielle Sullivan: Yeah.

Amy Lang: And some kids go zoom and they’re done. And some kids are super slow, and some kids start early. Some kids start later. So the safest, kindest thing you can do for your kids is do that. So if you have not, so I don’t ordinarily recommend this, but with neurodivergent children, because of that in particular, if you have not started the birds and bees talks, if you haven’t started—I started talking about reproduction and intercourse and blah, blah, blah you can, you may have permission to start with puberty.

Danielle Sullivan: Yeah.

Amy Lang: And there are good books and videos and all kinds of resources, and then you can circle back. Your body is changing like this because it’s going from a kid body to an adult body because you can be involved in procreation.

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: So doing the backwards is fine. But—and anybody can do that, but ideally you really are hitting the, getting in there with the, you know, the sex stuff sooner.

Danielle Sullivan: Yeah.

Amy Lang: Yeah. So I just think something to be mindful of, and you know, your kid and you know their tolerances and you know all that and, but they absolutely have to know what’s gonna happen.

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: It is the kindest, it’s the kindest thing for them. And they might not wanna hear it, but—ever.

Preparing Your Child for Their Period

Danielle Sullivan: I had a client, a parent-coaching client who had a, I think she was also a nine or 10-year-old daughter who, you know, was probably going to start her period in the next couple years and was very nervous about blood. Not a full phobia, but just got very upset about bleeding and blood, and the parent was worried about it ’cause it’s you’re gonna have a period.

Amy Lang: Yeah.

Danielle Sullivan: Um, and we don’t want you fainting every time you have to change your pad or like go to the bathroom or whatever. And so being able to talk to kiddo ahead of time and to say, this is gonna be happening and what do you think we should, like, different parents approached this differently, this parent approached—like went to a kid and said, “part of what’s gonna happen with your body is you’re gonna be bleeding and we can talk to the doctor minimizing it, but it’s probably still gonna happen. I would like to help you be a little more calm around blood and like, could we microdose?”

Amy Lang: Yeah.

Danielle Sullivan: Could we like, you know, and got to the point where I think kiddo started around 12 or 13 with a period. And was fine. Like—

Amy Lang: Yeah.

Danielle Sullivan: Was not like happy, but like was fine. And so, and that’s like kind of a, a specific random example—

Amy Lang: I love it. It’s great.

Danielle Sullivan: ’cause I don’t think most kids are like blood phobic. Right. 

Amy Lang: It’s a great example. It’s a great example.

Danielle Sullivan: It helps to just approach it directly.

Amy Lang: It’s a great example.

Danielle Sullivan: Yeah. Yeah.

Amy Lang: It’s a great example.

Danielle Sullivan: Thank you. I’m glad.

Amy Lang: And also, and also if they know—

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: This is what’s hap—this is the process of the body,

Danielle Sullivan: Yeah.

Amy Lang: It stops—

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: And then in terms of like, having the doctor, birth control, pills, whatever. People need to bleed, have, get to their period being consistent.

Danielle Sullivan: Yes.

Amy Lang: Before. Yeah, just so heads up.

Danielle Sullivan: Yeah.

Amy Lang: Although obviously if you’ve got a child, it just freaks the fuck out, then drug’em up, they’ll be fine.

Danielle Sullivan: You gotta make the decision you need to make for your kiddo.

Amy Lang: Yeah.

Danielle Sullivan: But I also think that by approaching it directly, and they talked, for example, about the difference between bleeding from a wound that is painful.

Amy Lang: Mm-hmm.

Danielle Sullivan: And how it’s, this is just shedding stuff because you’re not pregnant. And so just like the different framing and the different realities of it. And not lumping it all together. Not saying like all blood is ______.

Amy Lang: Right.

Danielle Sullivan: But saying like, this is one thing, this is another thing. And I really think, and it gave the kiddo. I think this is so thirdhand at this point, but my guess is it gave the kiddo more feelings of control over the situation. ‘Cause it’s like this thing is coming, how do you wanna deal with it? As opposed to surprise, bam, this thing is here. Um, which is a lot scarier. And like you said, especially if you’re neurodivergent and maybe you like your routines and your rhythms and you do not like big changes and all the sensory stuff, the discomfort, et cetera. So yeah. Yeah, just plugging, plugging your approach of directness from my experience.

Amy Lang: Perfect example. That is a perfect example of how to manage kind of the whole thing, right? And I love, like the question like, “how do you wanna handle this?”

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: Right? Gives them agency, buy-in. They all do better when they’re part of the decision-making.

Danielle Sullivan: Yeah.

Amy Lang: Yeah.

Danielle Sullivan: Yeah. No, I think it’s really important. That’s, that’s my parent coaching approach.

Amy Lang: Yeah, that’s great. No, it’s great. It’s great.

Danielle Sullivan: You have any, sorry, go ahead.

Supporting and Loving LGBTQIA+ Kids Unconditionally

Amy Lang: One thing we need to talk about, which you mentioned, is the queer thing.

Danielle Sullivan: Yeah, sure.

Amy Lang: Yeah. So this is like a documented proof that, uh, neurodivergent people, I think it’s are 2-3 times more likely to—

Danielle Sullivan: It’s very high.

Amy Lang: —be LGBTQ+. And I just find this super interesting.

Danielle Sullivan: Yeah.

Amy Lang: And people who are, uh, assigned female at birth, they tend to be broader.

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: Than men, which makes a ton of sense. Right?

Danielle Sullivan: Yeah. Yeah.

Amy Lang: All kinds of issues about being gay and whatnot.

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: So anyway, so this is something that I think it’s best practice to assume your child is going to be something other than cisgender and straight.

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: And if this is something that’s challenging for you, uh, your religion or your personal beliefs or whatever, um, the other piece of information you need is that queer kid suicide rate is four times higher than the general population. And neurodivergent people, suicide rate is higher-higher? Do you know?

Danielle Sullivan: I don’t know. It’s, it’s high. It, I don’t remember exactly, but it’s, it’s, it’s high.

Amy Lang: It’s high.

Danielle Sullivan: Yeah.

Amy Lang: It’s, it’s too high. So we’ve got double whammy.

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: With your kid.

Danielle Sullivan: Yep.

Amy Lang: And we know, um, with queer kids that the, the number one thing that keeps them on par with their peers is parental support.

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm. Yes.

Amy Lang: So, yay tons and tons and tons of parental support now. Um, and so sort of my rule of thumb is love, embrace your child. Ask’em what it means to them. Roll with it, hold it lightly, and do your freak out on your own time.

Danielle Sullivan: Yeah.

Amy Lang: And most people settle into their gender and sexual orientation towards the end of their teenage years, but it’s super fluid for lots of people, so—

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: And it can be hard, especially if you’re from a culture that says you were, if you have a penis, you’re a boy, and if you got a vulva, you’re a girl. And uh, “Hi, United States of America, uh, right now”. Just, sorry. Um.

Danielle Sullivan: Don’t be sorry.

Amy Lang: Not sorry. Understanding that people, I like, for me it’s like why on earth would someone pick something as complicated as this? As just to, to be like, why would someone choose—, you know what I’m saying?

Danielle Sullivan: Yeah, yeah.

Amy Lang: Another place that makes me a little bananas. But for you, sweet parents, assume, be ready, learn, be open. You do not want your child to suicide. 

Danielle Sullivan: Yeah. Yeah. I mean I think that’s, I, it’s a really important piece because I don’t, we scare parents unnecessarily, but it’s a real—It’s real. Yeah. I think a lot of times we approach like, oh, if I put off the sex talk, oh, if I don’t acknowledge that queer people exist, oh, if I don’t, then somehow they’ll never learn that. And that’s like, not reality. I’m sorry. I like to live in reality as much as we can, and as much as it’s awful here, yeah, it’s still important because the reality is that it’s your kid’s life on the line in many ways, based on your support and how you approach them and the lens you take, and what information you give them.

And if you want a kiddo who’s—we talk a lot here about kiddos who are prepared and have the skills they need, right? And how we can always skill-build no matter where kiddo is in whatever range. Um, but the way they build skills is by being open to new ideas, trying new things, and being supported through that.

And yeah, I like what you said also about have your freak out on your own time ’cause even as a neurodivergent, myself, person, myself, I’ve had plenty of freakouts on my own time. That’s just part of being a parent. But you know, you want your kids to feel safe in your home and safe with you and able to talk with you about stuff. And that means, yeah, have your freak out on your own time, get your therapist, get your coach, get your best friend, get like support and have your freak out together.

Amy Lang: Journal.

Danielle Sullivan: Yeah, journal. Yeah. Journal is beautiful.

Amy’s Three Top Tips

Amy Lang: Yeah, yeah. So, um, I mean, we just have a little bit more time. Um, would you be cool with me just giving sort of like three top tips?

Danielle Sullivan: That would be amazing. Thank you.

Tip #1: Unpacking Your Understanding of Sex and Sexuality

Amy Lang: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So three top tips. So I would say, the first thing for you to do as a parent has really nothing to do with your kid. Um, it really is helpful for you to think or talk about how you learned about sex and sexuality, the messages you got when you were growing up and giving.

And giving—when you do that, a couple things happen. It gets, it like, clears the decks in some ways, and it really shines a light on what didn’t work for you and what you want for your child. So that’s my, I like to give baby homework. So that’s my first little baby homework.

Tip #2: Repetition is Key and Clarifying What is Not Repeatable Information

So secondly, with your neurodivergent kiddo, it is really important to keep the communication short and be ready to repeat.

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: So the younger they are, you’re gonna be repeating more and—so just be mindful of that. There’s lots of resources which we’ll make sure you get. And don’t be afraid of giving them too much information. This is where we fall apart. We don’t give our kids enough information, and if your kid is 10 or 11 or older, just gloves off. Just talk about everything because they’re gonna hear it. They’re gonna experience it. They’re gonna see stuff. Their friends are gonna do stuff, say stuff. It’s safe for your child to already know, you know what some slang stuff means, and it might feel awkward to you, but it is it, it will serve them in the long run.

Danielle Sullivan: Yeah.

Amy Lang: And I say that, and your kid might be a kid that’s gonna share the news.

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: And if that’s the case, then you need to be ready for pushback.

Danielle Sullivan: Yeah.

Amy Lang: You need to be ready. You need to be really, you can say, you know, “Hey, this is something you can get in trouble for if you talk with other kids or parents about, not with me, you can talk to me. You know, adults are weird.”

Danielle Sullivan: Yeah.

Amy Lang: “I don’t want you to get in trouble, but you deserve to have this information.” Um, and like I said, if you need to start with puberty, start with puberty.

Tip #3: Creating Multiple Options for Communication with Your Child

And then the other piece is making sure that they are—Have ways to communicate with you, that’s just not, that you’re communicating with them in ways other than talking.

So just an example that I really like from a parent, we were having a conversation and she’s like, “I have this whiteboard and we write down family stuff on it. It’s really great. I’ll just put it up there.” And I was like, “Oh, hell no, you won’t, ’cause you’re gonna ruin that safe space.” Right?

Danielle Sullivan: Yeah.

Amy Lang: So then we talked a little bit about more, what more she could do. So writing notes, leaving post-it notes, um, this sometimes offends people, but tearing out sections of books.

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: And paper-clipping ’em and sticking ’em on the bed.

Danielle Sullivan: Yep.

Amy Lang: Sending texts, uh, watching shows, making comments during the show.

Danielle Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Amy Lang: Uh, after the show, say like, I love the show, Never Have I Ever. Great information there for kids 12 and older. And there are lots of moments where it’s like, oh, that was great. And say, “Hey, when we were watching this happened, I really liked it.” So you’re gonna use the world around you.

And then the last thing is, remember, they have a human right to this information. They are gonna have—most people have sexual feelings, most people have crushes, most people want some kind of romance. And so making sure that your child knows that, it’s like this is a normal part of life. And that it might look different for them. It might look different for them.

Parental Controls

Amy Lang: And then finally, and I believe we should have a whole little time about this: porn.

Danielle Sullivan: Yeah.

Amy Lang: We have to talk about porn and kids.

Danielle Sullivan: Yeah.

Amy Lang: But bottom line is this, if you are not using parental controls, you are putting your child at risk. And they will see it, and it, with a sticky neurodivergent brain, it can cause a lot of problems. So—

Danielle Sullivan: Yeah.

Amy Lang: But we’ll talk about that another time. Does that sound—?

Danielle Sullivan: Yeah, that sounds wonderful.

Amy Lang: Yeah.

Danielle Sullivan: Thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate—I wanna ask you like 87 more things, but—

Amy Lang: We’ll do a part two.

Where to Find Amy & A Reminder That You Can Do This

Danielle Sullivan: We’ll have to do a part two in the future. For now, would you please just tell folks where they can find out more about you and book you and see all your resources?

Amy Lang: Yeah. Thank you. So I do, um, consultations. I also do talks for parent groups. Um, like schools and that kind of thing. Um, so you can find me at birdsandbeesandkids.com. I’m on Instagram, @birdsbeeskids. Same for Facebook. And then in the show notes, uh, there’s a lovely little, uh, article freebie thing for you that’s called The Top Five Things Neurodivergent Kids Need to Know and Top Five for You. Lots of ways to find me.

And um, put your big kid underpants on.

Danielle Sullivan: Yeah.

Amy Lang: You can do this. You can do hard things. Your parenting neurodivergent kid, right?

Danielle Sullivan: You’re already doing hard things. This is just one more thing.

Amy Lang: Yeah.

Danielle Sullivan: It’s probably not even the hardest thing you’ve done this month. So you’ve got this.

Amy Lang: A hundred percent. 

Danielle Sullivan: Thank you so much, Amy. I appreciate it.

Amy Lang: No, my pleasure. And thank you for trusting me with your people. I really, really appreciate it.

Outro & Thanks

Danielle Sullivan: Thank you so much for being here today on Neurodiverging with me. If you’re interested in supporting this podcast or learning more, please check out Neurodiverging.com, link down below. You can also support this podcast financially by going to patreon. com/neurodiverging. We offer coaching services on a sliding scale for neurodivergent people all over the world.

We also have a, uh, platform through Patreon where you can get group coaching services, and support and community through our Discord and our Patreon classes. There’s lots of stuff over there, so go check it out. Thanks so much for being here, and please remember we are all in this together.