Dr. LaRoque is the founder and president of Mansfield Hall, an innovative residential college support program for diverse learners. He earned his doctorate in special education from the University of Wisconsin and has served in a variety of leadership roles serving at-risk youth and people with disabilities. In his book, Taking Flight, Dr. LaRoque offers an essential guide to college, providing practical information and strategies for the millions of diverse learners, nontraditional students, and people with disabilities who attend college every year.
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Show Notes:
- Donate to this podcast:Ā PatreonĀ |Ā PayPalĀ |Ā Ko-Fi
- Buy Taking Flight: The Guide to College for Diverse Learners and Non-Traditional Students by Dr. Perry LaRoque on Amazon or Bookshop
- Learn more about Dr. Perry LaRoque here: https://perrylaroque.com/
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Transcript of College for Neurodiverse Learners with Dr. Perry LaRoque
We are grateful for this transcription offered by K.M. Heck.
SULLIVAN: Welcome to the Neurodiverging Podcast! Thank you for being here! Today weāreĀ interviewing Dr. Perry LaRoque, Iām so excited youāre here!
Would you be willingāI know you have a doctorate in special education and youāve done so much work serving students with disabilities, would you be willing to tell us a little bit just aboutĀ what youāve been up to recently and your background?
LAROQUE: Yeah! Well so Iāve, crazy enough, been in the field now for⦠more than 25 years,Ā which is kinda scary to say. I started off as a special education teacherāI actually was raisedĀ at a summer camp, and so I was, for all the camp brats out there, I was a camp brat, andĀ came from a long line of educators.
My dad was a school psychologist, my mom was a preschool teacher and director for like 43Ā years. My brother who works with me now is a school psychologist, my sisterās a guidanceĀ counselor, my sister-in-law is a third-grade teacher, my wife is a clinical psychologist, I mean it gets, it goes on and on and on! My grandmother taught in a one room school in northernĀ Wisconsin.
SULLIVAN: Wowā¦
LAROQUE: So I, we, have education in the blood. So I was really⦠more interestedĀ and motivated to work with students who had diverse learning needs. And so I went to University of Wisconsin and did my undergraduate, specifically focusing on kids withĀ behavioral and emotional disabilities, and talked for a few years, ended up teaching also at aĀ psychiatricā childrenās psychiatric hospital inpatient, which was wonderful and then decidedĀ to go back to get my doctorate in educationā special education, and sorta got roped into academia for a whileā¦
SULLIVAN: [over-talking] Mhmm, donāt we all? [laughs]Ā
LAROQUE: Yeah.. and I loved it! And it was great! And worked at University Wisconsin, Whitewater and SUNY Potsdam and then ended up sort of finishing out my career atĀ Northern Vermont University, which was formerly called Johnson State College, where I ran the special education graduate program.
And I bring all this up because one of the pieces that sort of hadā you know, kinda keptĀ coming back to me throughout this entire career is sort ofā as I would say in a presentationĀ of likeā āWhere does the sidewalk end for our students?ā, and I was just seeing this huge gap of services once the student was leaving high school.
When I was teaching in California, I said to my coā one of my co-teachers, I said, āWouldnāt it be great if our students could go to college?ā and heās like āOh yeah it would be great, butĀ thatās never gonna happen.ā [dismissive/sarcastic tone], and that was like in the 2000s. And sorta that kinda kept coming back to me as whyā why not? You know, why couldnāt studentsā or why couldnāt anybody go to college if thatās what they wanted, to continue their learning.
And then when I was a professor I was kinda working on the inside and looking at all of theseĀ just really talented students who werenāt failing out because they werenāt motivated or werenātĀ failing out because that they didnāt have the desire to get the degree or they werenāt smartĀ enough, it was just that the system and the structure in which weāre asking to operate in just wasnāt appropriate for āem and we were losing all of this talent and this, this diversity because of the system and not because of the actual students.
I originally had partnered with the University of Vermont when I was a professor at Johnson State and we applied for one of the first federal grants to offer students with intellectual disabilities an opportunity to participate on a college campus and the THINK College Program is still up and running at the University of Vermont.
And we brought that program to campus, it was absolutely amazing! And then⦠I sort ofĀ helped to spin that program into whatās now the College STEPS Program, co-founded that,Ā and that program is now across the east coast, supporting students with disabilities inĀ colleges all across the east coast, which is wonderfulā¦
SULLIVAN: Yes!
LAROQUE: And what ended up happening for me was that I was still seeing this group of kids ā so the original THINK College grantā the eligibility for it was for students with an intellectual disability and the federal government basically said āUse the criteria of a 75 IQ or belowā,Ā which most professionals think is nonsense.
SULLIVAN: Yes!!
LAROQUE: But it wasā it was how we got our money and so we really could only serveĀ students who qualified and so⦠we were getting a lot of phone calls from families saying, āI heard about your program, can you work with my son or daughter?ā
And Iād say, āWell theyād need to have an intellectual disabilityā¦ā
āOh well theyāre really bright, theyāre really motivated, theyāre really smart, they just really have ā theyāre gonna have a really hard time in college, they need all this additional support, but ifĀ they get that support theyāll be really successfulā
And weād have to say no⦠and on the flip side the college was reaching out to us. AndĀ Johnson College at the time, and probably still to this day, dealt with a higher population ofĀ students at risk.
SULLIVAN: Mhmm [attentive tone]
LAROQUE: And so they were dealing with students with some diverse learning needs asĀ well, where they were coming to us and saying, āHey, this kid would be great for yourĀ program!ā and weāre like āWell, we need to have a demonstrated⦠intellectual disability in order for them to qualifyā¦ā [ends with a disheartened tone]
SULLIVAN: [slightly overlapping] Mhhmmm [sympathetic and also disheartened tone]
LAROQUE: And so this niche of kids, sort of thisā that were falling through the cracks in myĀ mind, was really what spawned the idea for Mansfield Hall. And so I created Mansfield Hall in 2013, weāre going on our 10th anniversary coming up here which is pretty exciting!
SULLIVAN: Yeah, itās really great!
LAROQUE: Yeah and soā the timeā¦ā It flew by.
SULLIVAN: [laughs]Ā
LAROQUE: I had like no kids and now I have an eight year old, a six year old, and three year old so itās like, you know, personally and professionallyā
SULLIVAN: [over-talks] Thatās where your time went, yes. [laughs]Ā
LAROQUE: Yeah [laughs] And so you know really we wantedā I wanted to create a programĀ that would provide these students with the support necessary for them to become successful in college and so we created Mansfield Hall in Burlington, Vermont and then just given the demand we expanded it to Madison, Wisconsin and now to Eugene, Oregon and we just announced that weāre launching a program in Redding, England, just outside of London.
SULLIVAN: Wonderful!
LAROQUE: And soā so that was⦠sort of the big project that Iād taken on for the past 10Ā years and we recently added a program called Virtual Hall which is online learning andĀ support so itās sort of all of the support weād provide for a Mansfield Hall student, but now weĀ provide it virtually and students are able to be anywhere in the country and get a level ofĀ support that they need to do well in college. And then through all of that I somehow I had timeĀ to also write a book āTaking Flight: The Guide to College for Diverse Learners and Non Traditional Studentsā, which is really just sort of the road map for a student to kind of figureĀ out⦠how do I do college not like⦠not the pieces of like how do you learn in college, butĀ more of like how do you overcome the system? So in some ways, itās like an insiderās guide toĀ reducing this cognitive load at all the hidden rules and demystifying this experience andĀ making it a more level playing field and sort of the shortcuts and how does a student with a Ā disability really be successful on a college campus.
SULLIVAN: [attentive sounds throughout]Ā
LAROQUE: So, thatās a long answer to what Iāve been up to!
SULLIVAN: [laughs] Youāve got a lot of things going on! Yeah!
LAROQUE: [chuckles]Ā
SULLIVAN: I think I read your bookā time has got away from me, but I think it was in March,Ā and I immediately recommended it to like six people I knew becauseā I thinkā So Iām aĀ coach and I work with a lot of.. a lot of college students who have made it into either a twoĀ year program or a traditional four year program, but are really struggling from not being ableĀ to access the supports they need with the disability services that are on campus or notĀ knowing what to ask for or not having the exact diagnosis code you need to get the thing, and are sort of falling through the cracks as you described.
And some of it is stuff, as a coach, that you can work on. Like we can support executiveĀ function, learning we can support, but a lot of it is systemic.Ā
LAROQUE: Yep!
SULLIVAN: Itās how education is built, and I really appreciated how direct you were in yourĀ book about that because, I tell students that all the time. The systems are ableist, the systems are built for, [laughs] you know, for what education was and who it was for in the 1800s and not⦠who it is for now and what itās supposed to be now. And I really appreciated that yourĀ book was so practical and so clear in like āthis is what we asked forā, āthese are some of theĀ things you can getā, āthis is how you frame your asks so you get the result that you needā andĀ really acknowledge the system wide issue of the education system and broader systems asĀ well in a way I havenāt seen in other kinds of books that are just are sort of like⦠āHereās howĀ you learn executive function skills!ā, āHereās how you study!ā, like that stuffās important! But itĀ doesnāt fix what a lot of these kids are struggling with so I just wanted to say I really appreciated that.
LAROQUE: Yeah.. thereās a lot of hoop jumpingā
SULLIVAN: [interjects] Oh my goshā¦Ā
LAROQUE: And I think thatāsā we take that for granted you know? I mean my wife works with refugees, and she brings this up all the time and we haveā thereās a lot in common actuallyĀ in sort of this population of people living in America whether they have a disability or whetherĀ theyāre new Americans of sort of managing these bureaucratic systems and sheās like āWellĀ jeez it took me half a day to fix this problem with our bill! I canāt even imagine what it would be like for someone whoās using English as a second language or someone with a disability whoĀ canāt advocate on behalf of themselves!ā
SULLIVAN: Mhmm
LAROQUE: And in many cases, even⦠right down to the term, ānon- traditional studentā,Ā applies to first-generation college students and we wanted to expand the focus of the book toĀ also be people who donāt know how to do collegeĀ
SULLIVAN: Yeahā¦
LAROQUE: Right down to when a professor says that you canāt do extra credit or that youĀ canāt turn in an assignment late, most of us look at them and be like āYeah, until you ask! Nicely! and then theyāll let you do it. But for a first generation student or for a student with a disability who canāt advocate for themselves, might just take that as gospel, where half theĀ class is getting around some of those rules or, you know, getting the benefit of the doubtā IĀ call them the benefit of the doubt pointsā¦
SULLIVAN: Yeah!
LAROQUE: You know? Iāve developed a relationship with this professor so itās gonna be aĀ little be harder for them to give me this minus instead of the plus or⦠when I had to get intoĀ this class at the last minute, because I stopped by and⦠you know, flashed my puppy dog eyes at the secretary every day, theyāre the one with all the power at the college any way, they gotĀ me into the class!
SULLIVAN: Yeah
LAROQUE: And so, I wanted to make sure that we were able to⦠just be really explicit about the actual process.
SULLIVAN: And I think thatās a lot of what I liked because, as an autistic person myself, whoĀ works with a lot of autistic people, you know, itās not universal, but a lot of us do haveĀ different⦠kind of culture, different social norms that weāre used to using. And so like you said, that sort of literal weāre looking for the explicit rule and weāre not gonna always readā someĀ of us can, a lot of us who are not are not gonna read implicit⦠sort of gestures or knowledgeĀ and get that knowledge the way that a neurotypical student might.
LAROQUE: Right.
SULLIVAN: And so, itās justā I think thatās a lot actually to⦠think back about what I likedĀ about the book ācause it really did directly say, āThis is what you do!ā, āThis is the informationĀ that is not being told to you that you can really use!ā.
So I really appreciated that sort of⦠that kind of permission? To push a little bit?Ā LAROQUE: Yepā¦
SULLIVAN: And to really like, you know, āDisability offices are supposed to give you this, itāsĀ okay to ask for it!ā, kind of language was really helpful to me, personally, and I, you know, IĀ passed it on to a lot of students!
LAROQUE: And I think that the heartā I think that the biggest myth about college and, IāmĀ gonna include some more of the⦠you know, autism specific programs popping up at collegesĀ across the country, ā
SULLIVAN: Yeahā¦
LAROQUE: āas well intentioned as all of that is⦠and I think itās wonderful! I mean whenĀ Mansfield all started ten years ago⦠I think there were like⦠15 or 20 college-basedĀ programs total and now I think thereās over 300?
SULLIVAN: Thereās a lot more, yeah.
LAROQUE: Yeah! Itās absolutely amazing! I still think there is this⦠that there is still a heavyĀ amount of responsibility on the individual student to still go out and get what they want. AndĀ thereās no amount of us as coaches or professionals that can do it for āem. And so, when IĀ was first writing the book the publisher said, āYou know youāre writing this book to thisĀ audience of young adults and quite frankly young adults donāt buy that many books.āĀ [chuckles] āAnd so could you change it to the parents?ā And I said, āNo! Absolutely not!āĀ Because itās not the parents that have to do this, itās the kid. You know? Itās the stā youngĀ adult, that has to be out there and theyāre the ones that are gonna have to push this system ifĀ they want anything out of it. And the idea of like if I sit here and just kinda wait⦠itās a harderĀ transition for a lot of these high school students because they were on⦠most of them wereĀ on IEP teams where decisions were being made for them.
SULLIVAN: Yeah, thatās a huge piece!
LAROQUE: [overlapping] Maybe with their input, maybe not with their input⦠You know IāĀ Unfortunately, I still feel like most IEP meetings are run like the kid isnāt in the room and⦠that
doesnāt help in college because suddenly youāre the only person in the room and youāreĀ having to try to pull all these people from all over campus into your room to help you and ifĀ youāre not doing it, no oneās gonna do it for you.
SULLIVAN: Yeahā¦
LAROQUE: And I think that thatās where the book was really meant to empower and toĀ encourage students that likeā Listen, this is a game that youāre gonna have to play, no oneās gonna play it for you.
SULLIVAN: Mhmm⦠and I think youāre very right! That a lot of these students are not reallyĀ getting the chance to⦠be the authority in their own life and theyāre not really always learningĀ the skills that theyāll need in collegeā Like they might be fine in the classes if they can access the information, right? But the skills to get the services they need to access the informationĀ are just not something that theyāve been allowed to⦠be trained for or have the experience ofĀ in high school and in younger grades. So⦠I know collaborative IEP meetings are becoming a thing! I really hope that they explode [laughs] and become so much more popular.
LAROQUE: [overlapping] I meanā Collaborativeā [disgruntled mic shuffling noises] I, okay,Ā so, I learned about collaborative IEP meetings in 1995 when I was getting my undergraduateĀ degree and so itās funny that you say, āTheyāre becoming more of a thing!ā we beenā when itās beenā
SULLIVAN: Youāve been pushing, Iām sure!
LAROQUE: Weāve been pushing! For years! And it justā
SULLIVAN: [overlapping] Takes forever.
LAROQUE: [overlapping] At the end of the day, weāre dealing with a much bigger problem.Ā Poorly trained teachers and all these other pieces where itās like, yeah! Absolutely! Because⦠students learn how to learnā¦ā many students learn how to learn implicitly in high school andĀ so the assumption is that by the time theyāre in college theyāre able to explicitly do it.
SULLIVAN: Exactly!
LAROQUE: And we know thatās just not the case with students with disabilities or withĀ students with diverse learningā whatever it is. But theyāre thrown into a system where itās like āOh itās up to you now!ā [mildly sarcastic] āYouāve got toā take what you want!ā [mildlyĀ sarcastic] And⦠without the skills to do that, students are at a significant disadvantage.
SULLIVAN: Yes, completely agree. Yeah and I totally⦠hear you and believe you about itĀ being, you know, a thing 20ā¦30 years ago. I think as an autism advocate too, thereās sort of aĀ parallel run of āWellā¦we knew this stuff. Weāve known this stuff for 40 years. Why is it justĀ now being implemented?ā and it is the difference between the system gettingā the systemĀ gets in itsā own way, right?
LAROQUE: Yeah
SULLIVAN: Where pushing as individuals and people on their own are trying to do good work, but systemically weāre a hot mess. Soā¦[laughs]Ā
LAROQUE: Yes, yeah
[many yeahs were exchanged]Ā
SULLIVAN: So can you giveā I know weāve talked a lot about this generally, but for folks who haveā Some of the listeners of this podcast are either⦠some of them are adults who areĀ going through the college experience now, but many of them have younger children who areĀ autistic/ADHD/some other kind of neurodivergence, some of them have co-disabilities with thatā¦
SULLIVAN: Are there some specific examples of challenges that you can offer that somebody might come into college and hit right away in terms of accessing the support they need?
LAROQUE: Waking up in the morning.Ā Ā
SULLIVAN: Mhmm?
LAROQUE: [laughs]Ā
SULLIVAN: [chuckles] Itās a good start!
LAROQUE: People ask at Mansfield Hall, āWhatās the most difficult thing we do?ā, we wakeāĀ waking students up in the morning! And it really starts there and Iāllā itās both an analogy andĀ reality that no one, in any program⦠in the country, is gonna wake a kid up in the morning.
SULLIVAN: [attentive mhmm]Ā
LAROQUE: And I should say thereāsā of course there are programs that will do it, but thereĀ are not enough college based programs that are at that level of⦠the first thing that has toĀ happen is that a studentās gotta get out of bed!
SULLIVAN: Mhmmā¦
LAROQUE: Andā¦the level of support thatās needed to do that, if a⦠high school senior is stillĀ not getting up in the morning on their own and starting their day, theyāre not gonna do well in ā they will fail in college!
SULLIVAN: Yeah..
LAROQUE: And so, you know, everything goes from there, right? I mean itās like, you have toĀ get up, you have to follow your schedule, you have to go into your meeting, you have to goĀ make a meeting, you have to identify what you need to do for that day. That level of executiveĀ functioning canāt happen until you wake up. Once you wake up that level of executiveĀ functioning is advanced for most adultsā
SULLIVAN: Yes. It is. [sympathetic chuckle]Ā Ā
LAROQUE: And so,⦠I feel like the challenges really are about managing that daily scheduleĀ independently. And⦠we like to say at Mansfield Hall and, I think I talked about this in theĀ book, but thereāthere should be three questions on a college exam. My admissions directorĀ at Mansfield Hall often says that there should only be three questions on a college exam,Ā entrance exam, and the first one is:
ā Are you able to accurately and independently identify when you need help? Thatās the first question, the second one is:
ā Do you know where to get that help?Ā
And the third one is:
ā Do you know how to use that help on an ongoing basis?Ā
And if you answer no to any one of those three questions, youāre not ready for college.Ā Independent college that is.
SULLIVAN: Yeah.
LAROQUE: Because so many of our students can do one or more of those, but canāt do allĀ three of them, and if you donāt know when youāre struggling but you know where to get help,Ā you know how to use it, it doesnāt really matter.Ā
SULLIVAN: Yeahā¦
LAROQUE: If you know when youāre struggling, but you donāt know where to get the help that you need then itāsā then thereās nothing more you can do about it! Or if you know where toĀ get the help, but you donāt know how to keep coming back to that help or how to use thatĀ help, then you can really start to struggle. Weāre in college towns and so our students attendĀ any one of the colleges in town so weāre like the super-dorm in a college town and so likeĀ weāll use Burlington, Vermont as an example.
So we have, what, a third of our students that attend university of Vermont, about a third ofĀ them attend Champlaign College and then about a third of them attend MATāer, not MATC,Ā thatās in Madison⦠the Vermont Community College
SULLIVAN: Okay
LAROQUE: And so⦠the services and supports at all of those colleges are fantastic! TheyĀ really are! Theyāre great! University of Vermont has a wonderful writing lab, they haveĀ wonderful counseling services, they have a great math lab, they have great disability serāallĀ of these things are wonderful! But theyāre all in different buildings⦠and they all involve youĀ walking through the door to get it.Ā
SULLIVAN: Yeahā¦
LAROQUE: And that just there and I think that people underestimate what it takes to just walk through a door! And we forget about that! Oh just go to the math lab! Or just go to the writingĀ center! If you need help just go to the writing center!! For someone with social communication challenā
SULLIVAN: [overlapping] Itās not that easy! [laughs]
LAROQUE: [unintelligible] āanxiety or somebody with whatever it is even right down to IāveĀ got to schedule an appointment on an app and Iāve gotta reply to that app and all of thoseĀ challenges just to get into the door are preventing someone from accessing that support! AndĀ so we forget about that! Like you can haveā you can send your kid to the best college in thisĀ entire country who has the best level of support and the best writing lab and the best methodology, but if they donāt walk through the door to use the support, its worthless!!
SULLIVAN: Yeah
LAROQUE: And so, Iām actually doing a training at a college on Friday, two different trainings,Ā and one of the questions I have to ask the college is āYou have great support, but are youĀ gettingā are you going outside of your door to get the students in the door?ā
SULLIVAN: Mhmm
LAROQUE: And oftentimes what we hear from college professionals, āWell, hey listen, my jobĀ kind of ends at my office doorā. Itās like well⦠but weāre dealing with a whole different group of kids now who you might actually have to step out and go find āem! If you really wanna support āem and serve āem! Theyāre not gonna walk through your door! They might be sleeping!! AreĀ you willing to go knock on their college dorm? And most colleges just really arenāt up to thatĀ challenge yet, they donāt have the resources, they donāt have the expectations that they needĀ to do that⦠weāre still working within a system that⦠you knowāIāll tell you a story, butā¦
SULLIVAN: [chuckles]
LAROQUE: Weāre still working with a system where itās being run by people who are lookingĀ at the bottom line.
SULLIVAN: Yeah.
LAROQUE: Iāve often said to people, āDonāt forget that one of the categories in the US NewsĀ World Ranking Reports of Colleges is about the acceptance rate. The lower you accept, theĀ better your college is. Think of that in reverse, the more you reject from your college, theĀ better college you are! And so we are still seeing colleges that are looking atāto reallyĀ streamline towards⦠getting the quote unquote āsmart kidsā in their college campuses andĀ then theyāre building these additional programs for the other kids, right? To kinda participate, but their focus still isnāt on the quote unquote āother kidsā right now. Their focus is on how are they creating research dollars and getting the smartest, brightest kids in the country whoāve done the most, you know, school activities andā¦
SULLIVAN: Yeah!
LAROQUE: the best SAT scores! Thatās still reality! Weāre still up against a very ableistĀ system that is now making exceptions for the other people, weāre stillā thereās still a lot ofĀ otherā weāre still being othered, in many ways.
SULLIVAN: Yes, yes very much so. Yeah⦠I, you said so much and I have so manyĀ responses and Iām not sure which direction to go! I think⦠I was really struck, just to go back
to your waking up in the morning, because I think I worked with like⦠four different clients last weekā adults! Like⦠in their 30s, 40s, 50s! Who are still having trouble getting up in theĀ morning to do the things they need to do. So your kind of, framing of that as a very advanced, you know, to get up and then go do all of the things as being advanced executive function isĀ very striking to me, and I donāt know why I havenāt thought of that before, because itĀ absolutely is and so many younger students are still struggling with that so much, that itĀ makes a lot of sense that.. that theyāre facing so much trouble just gettingā like you said, justĀ getting into the door!
LAROQUE: Yeahā¦
SULLIVAN: And certainly as an autistic person like there are so many⦠ways that it is hard, for me for example, to go to a writing center and have to deal with a new person and deal with a new sensory environment, and you know, find the path there and make sure I know all theĀ exit routes and stuff, right? That builds all this extra stuff attached to going in that I think youĀ know even if the college wasnāt financially focused and if it really was everybody was justĀ trying to serve the folks who are coming in, it would still be difficult for them to understandĀ what I need. And so, that, you know⦠also on top of the, you know, the ableism, the classĀ issues, the like layers of kind of junk..
LAROQUE: Rightā¦
SULLIVAN: [laughs] Systemic stuff in the way!
LAROQUE: Right!
SULLIVAN: You know I think thatās really important to point out to folks because, I think a lotĀ of parents have such high expectations for their kids even, you know, hopefully includingĀ disabled kids of all strokesā
LAROQUE: Yes
SULLIVAN: āto go to college and to get through college is like this huge achievement! Right?
LAROQUE: Right!
SULLIVAN: And so, it is so important to be able to support our students all the way through inĀ all the little ways that offer them that achievement! And I also hope that the brains that areĀ looking at the numbers start to realize how muchā¦. You said what? The brightest and theĀ smartest, right?
LAROQUE: Yes!
SULLIVAN: Have been the most active and itās likeā weāre startingā I think that folks areĀ starting to understand that there are plenty of bright, smart people who do amazing in theirĀ fields⦠who, you know, who werenāt bright in high school and who had struggled throughĀ college and then come out the other side andā
LAROQUE: Right?
SULLIVAN: āto work on their special interest! And just go! Right?
LAROQUE: Yeah!
SULLIVAN: And certainly there are folks who are not too and they are equally worthy ofĀ getting through college! But that, that sort of having to⦠spin or twist your idea of āWhat doesĀ it mean to go to college?ā, āWhat does it mean to be āsmartā?ā
LAROQUE: Right!
SULLIVAN: Quote unquote⦠you know, itās a lot of layers!
LAROQUE: [overlapping] Yeah, well I thinkā I think, you know, oftentimes I talk aboutā¦whereĀ does my, you know⦠fire come from, right?
SULLIVAN: Mhmm!
LAROQUE: I just⦠I just, completely believe that learning is a civil right, right? SULLIVAN: Absolutely!Ā
LAROQUE: And education is a civil right!
SULLIVAN: Basic human right!
LAROQUE: Seen it used against people for millennia! And that⦠I have a belief that if there is a student, regardless of disability or not disability, who has a desire to learn, they have a right to learn.
SULLIVAN: Mhmm!
LAROQUE: And if they wanna do it in a college setting, they should and oftentimesā I wasĀ on an NPR⦠show in Illinois in a college town and I said, āYou know, if the college is so goodĀ at doing everything, right? If universities are so good at everything they do, why donāt they Ā figure out how to teach all kids?ā Like why does it matter?? The best and the brightest isĀ irrelevant if we donāt have the diversity and the perspective!
SULLIVAN: Abso-lutely!
LAROQUE: And what Iāve learned throughout my career is that what weāre missing in societyĀ is these voices,Ā that diverse perspective of students with disabilities, whether itās learningĀ disabilities or autism or whatever it may be!
SULLIVAN: Alsoā yeahā broadā¦
LAROQUE: Because we operate in a world in which weāre all together,⦠but then we go toĀ colleges which were⦠kind of all separated from the greater worldā¦
SULLIVAN: Yeahā¦
LAROQUE: And so⦠I feel like Iām hoping colleges move in that direction. I have⦠I have hitĀ enough snags throughout my career to realize that suddenly someone in some department atĀ some big college at some point makes some ruling that is so unbelievably discriminatory inĀ my mind and theyāre saying it like its just a no brainā brainer kind of thing that this change isĀ gonna be slow.Ā
SULLIVAN: Yeahā¦
LAROQUE: Even right down toā I mean I thinkā Sorry, Iām gonna get on a soapboxā¦Ā [chuckles]Ā
SULLIVAN: Thatās okay! Thatās what weāre here for!
LAROQUE: We spent all this time, you know, watching this special education process happen throughout the 70s, and the 80s, and the 90s and it took us almost 20-30 years for someoneĀ to be like āHey shouldnāt we include students in the general education curriculum more?ā TheyĀ were like āOh yeah thatās a good idea! Lets start doing that!!ā [mocking tone] Right?? And soĀ now weāve done this really great piece where⦠special education used to be a classroom or a setting where itās now services and weāre offering these opportunities for students to be in theĀ classroom and kinda with their general ed. peers and which avoids all sort of the⦠you knowā¦Ā problems with curricula that were existing with special education classrooms. And now weāreĀ like tacklingā my generation of professionals are now tackling this college challenge, right?
SULLIVAN: Mhmmā¦
LAROQUE: But our approach to it right now is to create these separate things already⦠SULLIVAN: Yeah⦠yeah!
LAROQUE: Right?
SULLIVAN: Yeah.
LAROQUE: And I know thereās a bit of like, we have to in order to get it to work, but weāreĀ almost now in some ways feeling comfortable that if, you know⦠western college, making up aĀ name, Western CollegeĀ®, has a program with kids with autism, that weāre happy to see theseĀ 20 kids walking around campus together in a group! When weāve learned all these lessons over the past 30-40 years in regular education that it doesnāt work that way. Itās not⦠itās notĀ equitable, itās not fair, it doesnāt do the students with disabilities any challengesā any wins and it doesnāt give any wins to the students without disabilitiesā
SULLIVAN: No!
LAROQUE: ā who would really benefit from the broader perspective of having theseĀ students within the classroom and participating in a very normal, quote unquote ānormalāĀ societal way. As inā¦normal means that⦠there are people with disabilities in every walk ofĀ life that we live in!Ā
SULLIVAN: Yeah!! Thatā itās just expected as part of.. itās part of the world, right? LAROQUE: Right.
SULLIVAN: Yeah, yeah⦠I think thatās a really good point! Because, there has been this huge push towards generalized education and⦠I hadnāt.. I was identified after my⦠after I finishedĀ my masters and so I didnāt get any support! So looking back its like, agh! It would have beenĀ so helpful! But it is true that grouping us all into these little⦠you know, little groups is not⦠IĀ mean itāsā I donāt know, I guess I have mixed opinions. Itās important, I feel, for other autisticĀ adults and other disabled adults to know otherā
LAROQUE: Yeah!
SULLIVAN: āpeople in their community who are also disabled, right? And a lot of us are soĀ segregated from⦠because disabled people are so segregated fromā
LAROQUE: [over-talking] Yup!
SULLIVAN: ā the world in general, weāre also segregated from each other. LAROQUE: Yuup!
SULLIVAN: [overlapping] And so we canāt form these bonds! And so in some senses itās like,Ā okay a group of disabled students doesnāt sound like the worst thing from that very small perspective. But broadly! Youāre completely right that itās important to be integrated into theĀ larger society and to [thinking taps] have people know you! And⦠you know, to know otherĀ people!
LAROQUE: Yeah!
SULLIVAN: And to broaden that whole perspective! And I hadnāt⦠really considered that fromĀ the point of view of being a college student in a small group of disabled students whoās justĀ sort of ⦠stuck⦠stuck in that. Itās really interesting
LAROQUE: [interrupting] Right⦠Well we forgetā yeah and you know [laughs] youāve seenĀ the special education pendulum swing back and forth andā¦
SULLIVAN: Yeah yeah! [quickly, in agreement]
LAROQUE: And you know, I think that early 90s, early 2000s are you know there was just this really big push of⦠with the mainstreaming and the inclusion that⦠and the getting away from group homes and separate [settings? indistinct] that we also lost sight of the fact that peopleĀ tend to congregate around interests.Ā
SULLIVAN: Yes!
LAROQUE: And.. people with disability or⦠people with autism tend to oftentimes, and of course this is diverse as any other population, but tend to⦠bond over what their interests are! Or what their struggles are! Or what their challenges are! And so, I completely agree! And what I love about Mansfield Hall is that⦠you know, the majority of our students are
neurodiverse. You know, many have the autism label, many donāt, but⦠itās the first time thatĀ many of them have ever been able to kind of live in this communal setting where⦠otherĀ people understand their uniqueness and accept it!
SULLIVAN: Yeah.
LAROQUE: We work with students that are just the most accepting people on the planet! AndĀ they really start to develop these relationships that they hadnāt ever developed before andĀ they can carry that with them in wonderful ways throughout their entire day! So when it comes to going to this campus that is built for neurotypical people, they have that bit of.. you know,Ā courage that theyāve developed from this group of people that theyāveā that they identify withĀ in order to bring that to that campus. And so by no means⦠in fact in many ways Iā youĀ know I⦠I think that itās wonderful for people to find that triā you know, find their tribe! IāmĀ sure you [unintelligible] But to find their people that they can, you know, empathize with andĀ understand. And! We see the pendulum swinging to the direction of like, now creating that forĀ just those people where we start to lose the broader perspective of everybody sort of in thatĀ sort of world. So how do we have that balanceā
SULLIVAN: Balance
LAROQUE: ā between a student with autism sitting into a college classroom and exhibitingĀ behaviors that people go, āOhā¦what? Whatever, they must have autism. Itās no different thanĀ that person over there having hiccupsā I can forgive or accept or whatever for either behavior
because Iām in this worldly perspective and Iām able to be in a classroom where everybodyĀ learns a little bit differently and thatās fine!
SULLIVAN: Yeah!
LAROQUE: Than for us to have to ask a professor permission to have a student with someā¦Ā unique challenges to enter their classroom.
SULLIVAN: Yeah⦠yeah⦠well thank you very much for that! Do you have any⦠particular advice for students who are looking to enter college in the next couple of years and what they can⦠do to give themselves the best shot at making this transition?
LAROQUE: Yeaaahā¦
SULLIVAN: What are some things they should be looking at now or.. learning or skills toĀ develop?
LAROQUE: Yeah.. you know itās interesting because I think the answer to that question, IāmĀ sure if thereās kids/students listening theyāre like, āOohh, theyāre gonna tell me to study hard.āĀ And I.. Study hard! Iām saying that!! [dad tone]Ā
SULLIVAN: [chuckles]Ā
LAROQUE: But.. move to independence like⦠start toā you, yourself, and Iām talking toĀ those high school students right now⦠you, yourself, you need to start becoming moreĀ independent! Because what is gonna be required for this college experience is a higher levelĀ of independence than what youāre exhibiting right now. And so I think that⦠what we can seeĀ with accommodations and support and services is that it starts to get a little cozy. And weĀ start to rely on those things and itās a little bit easier for us to have mom and dad start doingĀ things for us or my teacher or my special education advocate or my coach, right? That reallyĀ the.. whatās gonna be necessary is that youāre not learning independence skills and advocacyĀ skills the first year youāre going to college, but youāve started to develop those years before.
SULLIVAN: Mhmm!
LAROQUE: People can tell you and put it on your IEP, that you need to be more independent, all these other things, but you really have to make this choice that⦠you are going to start to recognize the challenges that are ahead of you and start to conquer those on your own. And so, how do you start to become more independent? How do you start to.. start managing your daily life, your adaptive behaviors, your executive functioning skills? How do you start to prepare to live on your own? I, you know, my belief is that if someone⦠wants to learn something, they can learn it!
SULLIVAN: Absolutely!
LAROQUE: I think that thatās where we have to start with everybody! Right? But⦠you as anĀ individual need to start figuring out how youāre gonna learn those things despite the context in which theyāre being provided to you. So youāre not gonna go to a college classroom anymoreĀ and no ones gonna say, āWell if you donāt like to write papers, then go ahead and, you know,Ā do a dioramaā¦!ā Thatās gone!!
SULLIVAN: Yeahā¦
LAROQUE: Youāre gonna have to write the paper! And if you think that thatās gonna change, it is not gonna change. And so⦠and weād love it to, donāt get me wrong, Danielle!
SULLIVAN: Yes! No, Iām with you!
LAROQUE: But itās not gonna change! And soā certainly not gonna change in the nextĀ couple years! And so how do we start to learn these skills to do them and to overcome themĀ and to work harder. Someone that I worked with⦠who had a pretty significant learningĀ disability, I said āWhatāā and she was so successful as a teacher, I said, āSo what⦠what doĀ you thinkā Whatās the biggest thing that you take away from all of this? You know⦠What did you do? Where does your resilience come from?ā and she said, āHard Work.ā [exasperatedĀ tone]
SULLIVAN: Yeahā¦
LAROQUE: She said that, āI just had to, at some point, I had to realize thereās noĀ accommodation in the world that was gonna make my life easier. That it was gonna level theĀ playing field, but I had to work twice as hard for it.ā and so howāreā doubling down andĀ working harder and to be able to overcome those challenges is really what it starts taking andĀ practicing that now is really important.
The other thing I talk about a lot in the book⦠is to stop thinking about college as a place youĀ apply and a place you go to and then a place you graduate from. That college is a journeyā¦Ā
SULLIVAN: Yeahā¦
LAROQUE: And so⦠to really be realistic about what that journey might look like⦠and whatĀ you want out of it. And so, again [faint childās call for mom in the background] ifā there mightĀ be familial pressure to go to Princeton and have that bachelorās degree, but really payĀ attention to what it is that you want out of that degree. Are you getting it so you can hang it onĀ your wall? Or are you getting it so that you can live comfortably? And then start to chart thatĀ process to how to get thereā I used an example in a book of a friend that, I changed herĀ name, but how she ended up going to four different colleges before she graduated!
SULLIVAN: Yes!
LAROQUE: And she got a wonderful degree! And sheās smart! And she works with us!! I wonāt tell her who it is. [teasing tone]
SULLIVAN: [laughs]Ā
LAROQUE: And she works with us! And shes phenomenal! Right? She found her path to getĀ to college through four different colleges. She didnāt get it right until the fourth one.Ā Fortunately, had built up enough credits to not take another ten yearsā¦
SULLIVAN: Yeahā¦
LAROQUE: But.. you know that idea of starting to think about community college andĀ certificate programs and, you know, guaranteed transfer programs. Madison College inĀ Madison, Wisconsin you get a, might say this wrong, 27 credits and a 2.75, youāreĀ automatically accepted in the University of Wisconsin!
SULLIVAN: Yeah?
LAROQUE: Why would you go to University of Wisconsin for the most difficult classes in theĀ biggest classrooms, when you can go to a small classroom setting and take those classes inĀ a better environment?? And those examples go across the board, Lane Community College in Oregon⦠and so thereās all of these other pathways to those bigger universities if thatās yourĀ direction you wanna go. With getting there, being really smart and respectful to your learningĀ needs.
SULLIVAN: Needs, yeah. Thank you so much! I really appreciate your time!Ā LAROQUE: Yup!
SULLIVAN: Listeners! Please check out all the links below, weāre gonna have the book and Mansfield Hall and all the things! And I hope youāll go find them! Any parting words Dr. LaRoque, before we sign off?
LAROQUE: You can do it! You can do it! I knowā I feel like, to the parents out there and IāmĀ gonna bring this up at a talk Iām doing this weekend, we all are parents and we can all agreeĀ on one thing and that is that the biggest outcome we want for our kids in the world is for themĀ to be happy! And so⦠donāt get in the way of their happiness! And help them figure out howĀ they can be happy, not how you can be happy for them! And so⦠I think that thatāsā thoseĀ are my parting words! Donāt forget that weāre justā the goal of life is to be happy so letās justĀ make sure we have our students on the pathway to happiness!
SULLIVAN: Beautifully said, thank you so much for being here!
LAROQUE: Thank you Danielle, this was great!